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Busyness and Unhealed Trauma | John Eldredge #659

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In this conversation, John Eldredge joins me as we discuss the impact of busyness and unhealed trauma on relationships.
John brings up the concept of inner ages and how unresolved childhood trauma can surface in adult relationships. It is important to create space for our younger selves and having honest conversations about the needs and fears that arise.
We also discuss the fragility of the world and how it can affect individuals and relationships. 
Learn more from John here – https://wildatheart.org/

Takeaways

  • Busyness can take a toll on relationships, leading to a lack of leisure time and personal well-being.
  • Unhealed childhood trauma can resurface in adult relationships, causing emotional challenges and conflicts.
  • Tuning into inner ages and understanding the needs of younger selves can help navigate relationship dynamics.
  • Honesty and open communication about fears and needs can foster intimacy and understanding in relationships.

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Corey Allan (00:02.67)

It's fun to welcome back, even though as I was just talking with John Eldridge, right when we were getting ready to hit recording, it's fun to welcome back a conversation that I got to have way, man, this was 11 years ago, John, that or so that we talked last. So a lot's changed in the world for sure. And it's a privilege to have you back here to have a conversation again, man. So thanks for joining me.

John (00:17.537)

Wow.

John (00:22.306)

Yeah.

John (00:29.636)

Oh, thanks. Yeah, great to be back, Corey, and delighted just that you're still at it and doing great things for people.

Corey Allan (00:38.39)

Absolutely. And so you have, if the audience isn't aware of who John Eldridge is, you've written, I've lost count of the number of books and workshops, boot camps. I mean, you guys have just kind of been exponentially going at it, which has been an incredible thing to watch unfold. And so I'm really curious, man, from your unique take of doing this for several decades now. I'm not over speaking that, right? Okay, so what are you seeing right now in the state of relationships, or state of marriage, and the state of people within them? And we can go a lot of different ways, but that's kind of my opening question. Let's see where it goes from here.

John (01:09.092)

Yeah, that's true.

John (01:25.832)

Yeah, right, because we could talk about the shallows. And in the shallows, people are busier than ever. And that busyness takes a toll. I mean, somebody is going to end up paying for that. And it's usually your spouse pays for that. It's just busy, right? So you get home, you're gassed, you've got very little left. The amount of like

Corey Allan (01:29.567)

Mm-hmm.

John (01:53.184)

what used to be called leisure time or downtime, right? People are like, what are you talking about, man? Doesn't exist. Well, okay, so frog in the kettle, everybody thinks, well, that's just the way it is. I would say, folks, that has a cost to it and a cost to your soul, your personal wellbeing, and it has a cost to your relationships. As you start dipping down a little bit,

Corey Allan (02:00.118)

Right.

Corey Allan (02:10.923)

Mm-hmm.

John (02:23.368)

I think what I would call like the Midlands, I would say that people have not actually fully recovered from the pandemic. And I know we don't want to talk about that. People are like, oh, no, man, that's in the rear view mirror. Get over it. Yeah. And we actually aren't. People haven't found a new normal that's healthy. They have a new normal.

Corey Allan (02:34.475)

Yeah.

Corey Allan (02:40.9)

We're back to normal. Yeah.

Corey Allan (02:50.722)

Good, good clarifier. Yes, that's a good clarifier.

John (02:54.204)

But it's not healthy. But Cory, I think the thing that we'll probably end up spending most of our time talking about today is to kind of listen to people. Because we're living in a highly unstable and uncertain environment in the world right now, what is surfacing for people is unhealed trauma. Primarily unhealed childhood trauma, but not necessarily only childhood. And these things are now presenting

Corey Allan (03:21.975)

Mm-hmm.

John (03:22.432)

themselves in their relationships. I just had the funnest and the funniest Zoom session with a couple this weekend because they were so good at describing. She's like, six-year-old me is talking to 15-year-old him. And I'm like, brilliant. That jackpot. You guys are, wow, that's six months down the road, man. Yeah.

Corey Allan (03:39.286)

Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan (03:47.778)

Yeah.

John (03:49.228)

But that's what it is. It's the young places in us. In times of when life's great and your vacation's cool and everything's good, that stuff simmers below the surface. But in times when you don't have a lot of margin and you're kind of running on fumes and the world feels pretty chaotic, that stuff really shows up. So down in the depths, that's what I'm seeing. That's that.

Corey Allan (03:50.487)

Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan (04:03.44)

Mm-hmm.

John (04:17.936)

is what is affecting people's marriages from my perspective.

Corey Allan (04:22.05)

Yeah, so this is kind of what I would concur with that. And I'd also add the caveat of it seems like what the pandemic did most was take away the bubble of comfort and the fact that we really don't control much of anything. And that kind of resurfaced a lot of this whole, I feel totally out of control because I thought I had control.

John (04:39.596)

Yeah.

John (04:47.008)

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's yeah, the world has always been a fragile place. The pandemic didn't make it fragile. It just revealed but fragility. So you've seen anxiety, for example, anxiety disorders going up during and since the pandemic. Yeah, because people need a stable place. They need to know they're going to be okay.

Corey Allan (04:52.398)

Absolutely. No, not at all.

Corey Allan (05:12.566)

Mm hmm. And so when people are hearing this and thinking, okay, so the six year old me is now speaking to the 15 or maybe the six year old spouse. I'm curious in your take, where do they begin? If this if this realization seems to impact and make a little clarity?

John (05:27.253)

Yes.

John (05:30.582)

Hmm

John (05:38.912)

Oh gosh, this is just, it's gold. It's absolute gold because it's gonna bring a lot of clarity to your marriage and your relationships. So let's unpack this for a little bit. I know we have some time to do this. I would say first off, try and tune in. How old do you feel when your spouse gets mad at you? Or when they're late and...

Corey Allan (05:53.151)

Mm-hmm.

John (06:06.76)

and they blow off something important to you. Or they just completely forget your birthday or triggering events. Let's call them triggering events. Could be a conversation, could be an event. Because you and I are talking about six-year-old or 12-year-old you. Like just tune in and ask yourself, how old do I feel right now? And it might even be depending on the kindness in the marriage. Okay, now this is important. Depending on the kindness in the marriage.

Corey Allan (06:14.294)

Mm-hmm.

John (06:36.16)

You could even ask each other. You could say, hey, babe, 32-year-old you feels like, I don't feel like I'm talking to 32-year-old you.

Corey Allan (06:44.03)

Right, I don't see a 32 year old person in front of me, right.

John (06:47.4)

Yeah, exactly. If you can do that with kindness, wow, you can really help each other towards some understanding. And you can ask your spouse, you say, hun, how old do you feel right now in the midst of this, this conversation?

Corey Allan (07:01.33)

I think you could also add another layer to it in the sense of, so honey, how old do you interpret me coming across as? Who are you seeing, right? Who are you seeing as far as my age? Yeah.

John (07:09.628)

Yes, yeah, hello. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, because if you could begin to get some language around this into the marriage, the way you use language is really helpful because it's very disarming. You can say you can say, Oh, right now, babe, I love you, but I really feel like I'm talking to the angry teenager again.

Corey Allan (07:27.298)

Mm-hmm.

John (07:37.524)

And I love her and she has a place at the table, but is that who you want me to be having a conversation with right now? And then she can calibrate, right? She can go, no, I didn't really mean for her to show up. She needs some care, but no, I need to talk to you grown up to grown up or not. They may say, yeah, young me needs some loving care and young me needs to know.

Corey Allan (07:44.838)

Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan (07:49.73)

Right.

Corey Allan (08:00.223)

Right.

John (08:04.62)

Because what this couple was working through, for example, was his stress level was triggering six-year-old her. And, you know, because he would be like tense and intense, and we got to get this nailed down. And so his way of coping with stress was causing six-year-old her to feel very unsafe. And so it was really kind for her to say, honey, I just want you to know that when you go into that mode, babe,

Corey Allan (08:07.549)

Mm-hmm.

John (08:35.072)

and you are like trying to solve everything and you're very intense. There are young places in me that do not feel safe. And because he's a good guy, he's able to say, Oh wow. Um, yeah, I'm sorry. I don't, I don't want that to be my effect on you. So thanks for telling me.

Corey Allan (08:55.553)

Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan (09:01.175)

Yeah, that's so good because I think the terminology and the ability, because one of the things I believe in strongly is the idea of I need to learn to self-regulate better in intense situations because that just creates a better possibility for everybody involved rather than

John (09:19.208)

everybody.

Corey Allan (09:21.706)

we can become so reactive. And I think that's the one thing I have noticed post pandemic is there's still a undercurrent of reactivity among society and people, right? There's still, you can't be in a crowded group. I mean, we went to a football game. We took our son to an NFL football game a couple of weekends ago.

John (09:33.956)

Totally.

Corey Allan (09:42.59)

And there's a guy above me that sneezed and it's like, uh-oh immediately, you know, you get caught up in this. Here we go. We're all dead. You know, if we go, if we go way over reactive and I think that's for me personally, I'll own this, this whole thing of what I've recognized in, I don't know if it'd be a six year old, it'd probably be eight year old me is a hypersensitivity to illness that I absolutely know I have come by genuinely from my mother.

John (09:49.674)

Yeah.

Yes. Yep.

Corey Allan (10:12.47)

So it's something that has been passed down and it's the way it was cultivated and nurtured on the sense that I woke up anytime with how my throat hurts. All right. I got you an appointment with the doctor. We're going right now, you know, and it's just nonstop. And it's like, it made me kind of scared. So you can imagine a pandemic at the level it was had me freaked. I wanted to crawl into a hole and die sometimes. It just like, I don't want to see the world, right?

John (10:33.58)

Oh man, totally, totally. Okay, so let's back up for a moment and give everybody a little bit of self-understanding. So to be a human being is to be many ages. You are stained glass. You're beautiful, okay? Humanity is beautiful, even in our brokenness. We're very, very beautiful, but you are many parts to you.

Corey Allan (10:53.858)

Mm-hmm.

John (11:03.86)

Okay, I think that's a new idea for a lot of people. But it will help them to go, oh wait, no kidding. You're saying that my fear of illness, like that's actually like a younger me? Yeah, yeah, that's a younger you. Oh wow, that's super helpful. And your fear of intimacy, that's actually a younger you. And you can go on, like, and you can notice.

And if you'll just begin to pay attention, you'll see these different like parts of you, these different ages show up in different situations. And this is the framework that if we could pass this along to your tribe today, that's just such a helpful, helpful piece of information to go, oh, I am navigating.

a variety of inner child, a variety of inner ages in me. Oh, that's super helpful. And it explains why I overreact to someone sneezing or to someone trying to control me or when someone gets mad, I just freeze. I just don't even know what to do with anger. I just freeze to go, oh, okay, that's okay. That's eight-year-old you, you know, that's okay.

Corey Allan (12:03.714)

Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan (12:22.679)

Mm-hmm.

John (12:31.052)

That just that will revolutionize marriages to go, oh my gosh, right?

Corey Allan (12:37.13)

Right. And have you seen this concept or idea play out differently between men and women? On how it's received, how we internalize that, what I do with that? Because I could all, I mean, because you guys, the one thing that I am most impressed, well, there's a lot of things that I'm impressed by all the work you guys have done at Ransom Heart, and just you individually, is...

You have a defined focus towards men on some of your messages, defined focus towards women in some of your messages. So I'm curious your take on when you're talking about how we interrelate to each other, even though there's a lot of similarities among us, there's still differences that make us quintessentially unique one or the other.

John (13:21.504)

Oh, absolutely. 100% Yeah, because women primarily want to be understood. And men primarily want to fix things. And those aren't bad, gang. Those those have a place in the world, like we need empathy and understanding and compassion. And we also need to fix things. Like, can't yeah, you can't just leave the world broken, you know. But

But this is helpful for men. So when we're talking about becoming aware of different ages, different parts of me, I think women would be much more likely to buy in because the guy is gonna go, oh crap, more to fix? Right? He's like, ah, dang dude, don't roll this out on me. Like, you're kidding me. Like, no, I'm 35, leave me alone.

Corey Allan (14:11.022)

Yeah.

John (14:19.16)

You go, well, but that seven year old that you really actually is there and if you'll just allow some space for it. So I'd say men would be a little less quick to buy in because it feels like something you have to fix and just say, no fellas, actually, you don't have to fix this. This is gonna help you with your addictions, with your anger, it's gonna help you.

Corey Allan (14:24.202)

Mm-hmm.

John (14:46.38)

with your fear, it's just gonna bring a lot of things into clarity for you.

Corey Allan (14:50.966)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, because that's the one thing that I think is important for people to recognize, is this idea that every single one of us has a journey that we have, stages that we haven't completely... I mean, there's all kinds of psychological theories out there. There's one is if you don't complete the journey of one stage, you'd never leave it in that aspect of your life, right? And that's... So there's... We're kind of...

John (15:14.42)

Yeah, yeah, that's terrible. Everybody, by the way, you're fine. Yeah.

Corey Allan (15:18.882)

I absolutely, I agree. But it's the idea of there are so many things that we're constantly in the process of developing and becoming. I mean, I love the scriptural concepts of God cares about our character and our wisdom. And those things are developed. Like we grow those aspects of us. And a lot of that is exactly what you're describing in that.

John (15:36.405)

Exactly.

Corey Allan (15:44.45)

Oh, in that particular area of my life, I haven't grown it. I haven't, that still shows up in this equation and wreaks some havoc and then kind of fades off back into the distance and hopes that, oh, don't look at me, I'm good. I'm just gonna stay hidden over here.

John (15:53.452)

Yeah.

John (16:01.104)

Yes. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Instead, the really hopeful thing about it is that we are all in a process of becoming wholehearted. Wholeheartedness is the goal, where all of you is well and integrated into a mature adult. And in that journey, so

Corey Allan (16:20.088)

Mm-hmm.

John (16:24.716)

now you go, okay, I got some language for this. So okay, the fear of intimacy thing, that's a seven year old in me because there was inappropriate intimacy, you know, or harm. Okay, what does the seven year old need? And again, guys, like, see, the thing is, to be wounded for most men is an embarrassment.

And we've got to out this and go, that's BS, guys. And I'd use stronger language if we weren't podcasting. That's just BS. To be wounded is to be wounded. It doesn't mean you're weak or incompetent or immature. It doesn't. It means that things happen, words were said, there was care that was not given, that there was.

Corey Allan (17:02.614)

Right.

Corey Allan (17:08.76)

Mm-hmm.

John (17:21.888)

I mean, I came to this huge, huge epiphany in the last couple of years. That was actually about my mom. I always thought I grew up in an alcoholic home. My dad was the alcoholic. So I was pretty clear on father trauma, father wounds, father abandonment, alcoholism, hypervigilance for me, that kind of thing. OK, but to come into some clarity on what it was like to have a mother that was always gone, she had to go back to work.

Corey Allan (17:41.613)

Mm-hmm.

John (17:51.928)

to pay the bills, okay? So no harm, no foul, she had to go back. Well, she was gone. I have no memory of playing with my mom or having her read a book to me. Well, that kind of deprivation does things in the masculine soul. So this is huge. I mean, I know this feels rabbit-holy, but okay. Okay, so the thing is for guys, a lot of the sexual stuff.

Corey Allan (17:58.08)

Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan (18:10.783)

Let's go. I love rabbit holes.

John (18:16.976)

the allure to I need feminine touch, I need intimacy, I need sex, I need breasts, you know, I actually may be rooted in mother deprivation. It is feminine famine. I literally grew up with a famine in the feminine, you know, feminine mercy, feminine presence, feminine care, feminine touch that a mother provides.

Corey Allan (18:33.995)

Mm-hmm.

John (18:44.948)

And this is a fascinating thing too. Little boys actually need more of this than little girls. Yeah, they do. More snuggling with mom, more kind of things. So if you don't get that, and then you find yourself like drawn to women, you go, maybe there's a hunger there that a younger part of you is trying to fix that doesn't have to do with pornography. It doesn't have to do with sex. It has to do with a famine.

Corey Allan (18:50.642)

Okay, yeah.

Corey Allan (19:02.14)

Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan (19:14.498)

Mm-hmm.

John (19:15.312)

in the masculine self. Okay, so what we were talking about is how can guys dial into this? Well, man, that is a huge rescue. Like, oh, that's what I'm looking for. Now I can ask, what does the seven-year-old need? Well, he needs kindness, he needs understanding. And I don't, I think I used to treat him a little bit like the adult just kept saying, get your act together. You know?

Corey Allan (19:44.392)

Right? Right, stop acting up, if nothing else. Just stop acting up and pitching a fit or going really childish ways to accomplish this goal.

John (19:45.1)

Come on. There you go.

John (19:53.304)

Totally, or reckon things. Yeah, like, what do you need? And so for both men and women, we can begin to tune in and go, honey, right now, my six-year-old just needs to know that I'm safe and that you're not leaving. And the guy can go, leaving? I'm not leaving. How did that get into this picture? Well, it's, yeah, young you. Okay, babe, I'm not leaving. Let's bring that, yeah. It's very, very helpful. Name what these places need.

Corey Allan (20:13.872)

Right.

John (20:22.3)

angry teenager may just need a voice. You know, and she says, honey, I just don't feel like I have a voice in this conversation about your parents and should they come for Christmas or whatever? I don't feel like I have a voice and you go, okay, thank you. Thanks for putting words to that. Let's give the teenager a voice.

Corey Allan (20:41.887)

Yeah. Yeah, cause I love the whole framework of this, John, because one of the things I believe in is the idea that a great marriage has room for both people in their entirety, right? And that's not all good and roses and butterflies. It's also wounds, impetulance, pain.

John (20:54.061)

Yeah.

Corey Allan (21:04.206)

trauma, all of that. And so it's just the true compassion, I think, comes about when we have room for each, ourselves and each other, rather than trying to muscle what I don't like about somebody out, because it's just more comfortable for me. Which that's perpetuating the problem here.

John (21:19.448)

Yeah, totally. Yeah, it is. It is. And you're only confirming all the fears of those young places in your spouse. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. I like that room for both of us and room for all of me. Yeah, room.

Corey Allan (21:30.724)

Right.

Corey Allan (21:38.806)

Yeah, knowing full well it's gonna be incredibly uncomfortable, which actually is intimate. If I look at it right, in the sense that yes, intimacy is not always gonna be warm and fuzzy feelings. It's gonna be some discomforting things because I'm learning something about somebody else or myself that I need to have as part of that picture.

John (21:45.588)

Yeah, yeah it is.

John (21:59.604)

I like that. I like that. So honesty brings intimacy.

Corey Allan (22:06.07)

Yeah, I think that's a step in the process, absolutely. And it's honesty, it's self honesty, and then it's relational honesty. I mean, doesn't that all seem to track?

John (22:10.359)

I like that.

John (22:14.784)

Yeah, yeah, that does track. That's really good, because if you're able to put words to it and say, right now, one of the other pieces of language we use, in addition to, hey, honey, I feel like I'm talking to its 13-year-old right now, or eight-year-old me is feeling really anxious about this decision we're trying to make. Why am I immobilized? You're wanting me to make a decision. I just want you to know eight-year-old me is freaking out.

Corey Allan (22:29.004)

Yep.

John (22:44.5)

Okay, that language helps. Another piece of language that's really gonna help your marriage is this one. The story I am telling myself, right? Hey babe, the story that I'm telling myself is you don't care what I think about this. Is that true? I don't think that's true, but the story that I'm telling myself, and it's another way of putting language to, there are parts of me that have a narrative.

Corey Allan (22:51.05)

Yeah.

Corey Allan (22:59.702)

Right.

Corey Allan (23:14.7)

Mm-hmm. Right. And because the narrative is the shape-shifter of this whole thing, isn't it? That it sets the course in all kinds of different ways based on the story I attach.

John (23:15.016)

Yeah. Oh my gosh.

John (23:26.716)

us. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I don't know when this is going to air this particular podcast, but after the holidays, everybody is going to be reeling from this. Because because when you go home, or when the folks visits or when your uncle Stan shows up, like little you goes into mode. Okay, yeah.

Corey Allan (23:49.126)

Uh huh. It's the family disease. I use it as when we go home, we still have the family disease. It's there.

John (23:55.236)

Yeah, right. Yeah. And I used to get so frustrated. Stinks and I would get into an argument before we left her street. We'd be in the car, leaving her parents' house. We would be in an argument before we hit the stop sign because I would raise something about the dysfunction of her family. But, oh, she's nine and she's defending her family. And it took years for her to be able to see her family objectively.

Corey Allan (24:09.603)

Okay.

Corey Allan (24:21.45)

Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan (24:25.181)

Mm-hmm.

John (24:25.536)

Yeah, so yeah, I mean, hey, everybody, you get around family, your spouse is probably going to revert to a certain age.

Corey Allan (24:38.074)

Yeah, and let's go ahead and level set this too. Every single family has certain levels of dysfunction that are only noticed by those outside of the family. So, including the two of us talking here today, I know my family has a certain form of crazy, absolutely. And I know what I have with my kids is a certain form of crazy, absolutely.

John (24:45.512)

Absolutely.

John (24:50.324)

Yes. Oh, totally. Totally. Yeah.

John (24:58.992)

Yeah, yeah, that's really good. That's right. So now you've got some ways of describing that and saying, honey, this isn't blame. I'm just looking for mutual understanding. When we're with your parents, you are five. Are you aware of that sweetheart? Like, are you know, and the need for approval and the need to, you know, don't rock the boat and yeah.

Corey Allan (25:14.455)

Ha ha ha.

Corey Allan (25:24.528)

Right. Yeah. And pro tip, if you're bringing this up while driving, hold onto the steering wheel very tightly. So that way, if you do reactively try to get pushed out of the car, you at least have something to hold onto.

John (25:29.188)

Ha ha ha!

John (25:33.588)

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, pro tip, absolutely. Yeah, and pro tip, probably don't bring this up as you're pulling away from the house. But I.

Corey Allan (25:43.322)

Oh no, we need a little bit of distance to have some reflective awareness of systems, yeah, absolutely.

John (25:51.764)

Absolutely. Yeah, but what's cool, guys, again, this is all hopeful, everybody. It's all hopeful because now, two weeks before you go to summer vacation, you know, you sent the family visits or whatever, or your sister and her family are coming to town two weeks ahead of time, you can say, so honey, we're both aware that that, you know, five year old you or 13 year old you shows up.

and kind of goes into that mode. How would you like to live this time? Are there some things we can do? And so you're talking about it ahead of time. It's proactive.

Corey Allan (26:25.727)

Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan (26:29.642)

Mm hmm. No, I get it. My wife and I have a code that we use, which is, Hey, honey, do you need a glass of water? And that's code for that means you are part of the family disease here, you have, you have gone back into the fold, you have lost perspective, a little bit, something to that effect. And then typically that means

John (26:38.412)

Yeah. And what does that mean?

Corey Allan (26:55.898)

Like if it's coming to me from Pam, I actually get up from wherever I am and I go to her and we go get a glass of water. And then what was fun is one year she actually changed it up and said, rather than come actually get a glass of water, whenever either of our families are weighing on us and we're getting caught up and wrapped up. I'm say the code and then we're going to go someplace and kiss. And like, I like this plan. And it's just kind of to show we're not trying to bring each other down. We're actually trying to spur each other on here.

John (27:24.756)

Yes.

John (27:29.46)

Yes, yes, that's so good. Right, I'm not criticizing, Han. I'm trying to give you a hand out of the situation.

Corey Allan (27:40.654)

So I'm assuming, John, that when you're talking about the dynamic of between you and Stacey and visiting home earlier on, when you guys were in the midst of your normal mode as husband and wife away from the direct influencers by proximity,

Corey Allan (30:41.454)

Does she have an awareness that's a little different? Cause you can almost build off of that. Cause I always had the benefit of, as Pam and I went through our married life longer, we both started recognizing some of the turmoil dysfunction that we brought ourselves in to the relationship with. And so therefore we kind of have a perspective of like, oh, my mom drives me so crazy. That's giving her cues into, I see some of what she absolutely does see.

which then gives us a better possibility of building on that.

John (31:10.706)

Yes.

John (31:14.383)

Yeah, that's really good. And can we just I mean, I'm sure you tell your people this all the time. Can we just say, everybody, please get into counseling at some point in your life? I mean, come on, like, be a realistic human being, you have stuff. And, and there is healing for your stuff. There is. The best thing you can do for your marriage is go to counseling, I mean, individual counseling, first, right? So

Corey Allan (31:22.486)

Yes.

John (31:43.859)

Corey, we both did. And that really opened up the conversation because then there was an independent, you know, non-biased party who is helping us see, no, you know, when you get home, when you get around your mom again, these things get triggered. And Stacey actually is seeing things pretty clearly. Yeah, so that's super helpful.

Corey Allan (31:54.631)

Right.

John (32:11.123)

Gosh, folks, if you haven't been in therapy yet, what are you doing, man? This is your 2024. This is your new you.

Corey Allan (32:21.28)

Yeah, I mean, that's the importance. I mean, my dad used to say that I've just carried it forward. Everybody needs therapy because everybody's born in families.

John (32:31.323)

Right, yeah, right. And schools and work, and I mean, there was all kinds of places where harm happened.

Corey Allan (32:38.454)

Right.

Corey Allan (32:42.221)

Right.

So I want to pivot this real quick, just a little bit, because I'm curious. When we, bringing into the framework of the parts of me that are being revealed, as far as the six-year-old me, the nine-year-old me, the 15-year-old me.

We've hinted around the idea of intimacy, but I'm also, I wanna have a conversation about how that's gonna wreak havoc in sex too. Because I think those two are different. Intimacy and sex are two separate things that overlap a lot at times, but they're not the same thing. Because we've kind of talked about that in some regards that the boy in me often would lead the charge when it came to sex with Pam.

She likely, if I'm thinking about this accurately now based on our conversation, would have been wise to rebuff some of those advances because she didn't want to have sex with a young boy, metaphorically speaking.

John (33:48.795)

Yep. Yeah, yeah, that's really good. That's really good.

John (33:59.667)

huge to be aware of who is initiating but also who is rebuffing. Because again, like, as you know, the data is horrible on this. The number of women that experience sexual traumas as children is just astronomical. And so here's a very touching story. So I was marrying a couple and it was actually him, it was the young groom I was officiating. And

And we were in the back room and he is having a panic attack right before the service. And I asked him, I said, how do you feel right now? And he says, I don't know, I'm just young, young. I don't feel like an adult. I feel young. I said, here's what I want you to know. I'll call him David. Young David, I want to talk to you right now. You don't have to get married and you don't have to have sex tonight. Young David.

Corey Allan (34:34.274)

Mm-hmm.

John (34:58.107)

Older David has got this Older David has got this. Okay. It totally like he came out of the panic attack Okay, so why women why am I bringing this up on the female side? Well because If a woman Internally is not liking the idea of having sex ask yourself how old you feel

Corey Allan (35:02.122)

Okay.

John (35:24.699)

Because 37-year-old you may actually really enjoy sex, right? It's eight-year-old you, okay, who hasn't healed yet from the trauma. And so you can literally say to eight-year-old you, oh, sweetheart, this isn't, you're not, you don't have to do this. I got this, older me has got this. This is for big me. Because those feelings in us,

Corey Allan (35:27.925)

Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan (35:42.067)

Mm-hmm.

Corey Allan (35:46.27)

Right? Right.

John (35:52.535)

of interest or the lack of interest may be coming out of younger places in us, I guess is what we're trying to say.

Corey Allan (35:58.238)

Absolutely. And I can almost hear when we can start to get more integrated, to use the words you used earlier, within that dynamic of ourselves, within the close proximity of somebody else doing the same thing. That's where you get sex on a whole other level, right? That it's a spiritual oneness. It's a bonding. It's a soulful thing. It's not just an act you're doing.

John (36:05.305)

100 percent.

John (36:13.893)

Yes.

Yes, yep, yep. Oh gosh.

Absolutely, absolutely, 100%. Okay, so to be kind, we need to talk a little bit about integration. And that's a whole podcast in itself. It's a series, it's a whole podcast series in itself, but let's just give a couple tools towards integration. And one is, how does older you feel about younger you? And how does younger you feel about older you? Because most of us, older us,

Corey Allan (36:45.614)

Okay.

John (36:53.751)

is still pushing younger us away. And you're not going to get to wholeheartedness while that's happening. OK, so oftentimes there needs to be forgiveness, apology, kindness. Old like older me was the drill sergeant towards younger me. Get your act together, man. Stop crying. Get your you know, that doesn't work. And even to give younger you a voice to say, how do you feel about older me?

Corey Allan (37:13.399)

Right.

John (37:21.159)

So you're feeling seven years old and you go, seven year old me, how do you feel about grown up me? And go, I'm scared of him. Go, yeah, I get it. Okay, because for integration to happen, the two of them have to like each other. Older you needs to like younger you, younger you needs to like older you. Okay, or they won't come home together, they won't reintegrate. And then because a large part of your audience is coming from a faith perspective, the most hopeful thing in the world is this, the soul is healed.

Corey Allan (37:33.727)

Right.

John (37:50.995)

through union with God. The soul is healed through union with God. This is the most lovely thing in the universe. It is that the kind, tender, loving God who created you is able to come to those young places and provide care and assurance and healing. And so what I do,

Corey Allan (37:52.631)

Right.

John (38:16.679)

when I'm feeling younger me or raging 17-year-old me, there's an angry teenager there, as I say, okay, Papa, Father, Father God, Papa God, I need you here, would you come here? Meet me in this place. And just that simple prayer of just meet me in this place can really bring us towards integration.

Corey Allan (38:41.531)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, because that just, because what I hear you describing is that's an, that is the aspect of where we learn to settle ourselves and all of ourselves, if you will, right? That rather than let one run the show, settle into it and see where it goes.

John (38:52.071)

Mmm.

John (38:57.381)

Exactly. Yeah, I like that.

Yes, right.

Yeah, that's good. That's good.

Corey Allan (39:06.478)

Okay. Well, man, this has been a privilege to steal some thoughts and some time with you, man. And I so much appreciate it. So, as they always do, you know, great conversations, you just get caught up in them and they just go. So, but in case somebody doesn't know how to find you, where would they do so?

John (39:14.891)

Thanks, Cory It flew by so

John (39:25.347)

Yeah.

John (39:31.771)

Yeah, so we are Wild at Heart. That's the name of the organization. It's the name of the podcast, wildatheart.org. So our website, wildatheartapp, the Wild at Heart podcast. Yeah.

Corey Allan (39:45.998)

And there is a whole slew of tremendous resources there. So I highly recommend checking it out to the audience. So John, absolutely it is. I noticed that change within the last couple of years. I was like, whoa, everything just completely shifted in the way you guys were going. So that's so great. Well, blessings on the continued mission and thank you so much, man.

John (39:56.231)

For free, by the way, folks.

John (40:04.159)

Yeah.

John (40:09.799)

Thanks. Thanks, pal. Great to be with you, Corey.